Interview with TC Brennan. 
This interview "took place" over roughly a week in July 1998, via 
e-mail. I sent TC questions, he sent the answers, I replied with more 
questions,and so forth. 
Jason Wynd: When and where were you born? 

TC Brennan: August 11, 1948, in Port Huron, Michigan (st. Clair County). 


What is your first memory of US intelligence meddling in your life? 

The meeting at the Old Covered Bridge that forms the opening scene of 
CONJURELLA. 

For those readers unfamiliar with it, could you give us a brief 
description? 

Uncle Johnny was a compulsive gambler with underworld ties. My Dad was 
in Columbus visiting my mother's other brother, Uncle Charley. My Dad 
needed money, maybe even money to get back home to Michigan. Johnny 
convinced my Dad to go out to the Old Covered Bridge with him (and me in 
tow) on an unspecified underworld errand, where he would be paid $50.00. 
A lot of money to a Michigan farmer in 1953. Once there, David Ferrie 
and his henchman appeared. I was drugged; Aunt Bonnie (aka Conjurella) 
was raped. 

How, in your opinion, were you chosen for the program? 

Children favored for selection were given I.Q. and manual dexterity 
tests. My cousin Linda and I passed with flying colors. 

But how were "children favoured for selection" in the first place? 

I don't know; I think they were looking for highly intelligent children 
whose parents could be compromised. 

What was the next step once you were "chosen"? 

Wipe the meeting from my mind, so I wouldn't suspect what was happening, 
until I was in their presence again. 

So at this time you had no memory at all of what was being done to, you 
thought you were just a normal pre-adolecscent farmer boy? 

Sort of. But remember the dichotomy of that situation also. My dad was a 
nationally published author of short stories (as "Bill Brennan"), who 
had very bitterly settled down to being a farmer. My late mother was the 
bread-winner, as she continued to publish her stories (which he did 
not), and was, at that time becoming the CEO of the board of a Michigan 
K-8 (kindergarten through eighth grade) school district, the Swamp 
School District, aka Kenockee Township School District #4. My late 
father gained a seat on the St. Clair County Board of Education in the 
1950s, and received a check for, I think, $25.00 a month, the only money 
he had in those days. So you can see the paradoxes; a family of 
nationally published authors and local educators, who were, nonetheless, 
impoverished and dysfunctional. 

Would it be fair to describe you as a "Manchurian Candidate"? 

Yes, from what I understand that phrase to mean. 

Any comments on the movie? 

Never saw it. 

(The movie was made in 1962 based on the book by Richard Condon. It 
deals with Raymond Shaw, a soldier who is part of a platoon that is 
abducted by Communist intelligence and subjected to drug and light 
saturation/bombardment, hypnosis, etc, and "programmed" to kill on 
command, whenever a certain "trigger" is given (for Raymond it is a 
Queen of Diamonds playing card) Raymond has no memory of being used in 
this way, and is in effect a kind of "organic robot". The movie was 
withdrawn from circulation for almost thirty years, ostensibly for 
reasons concerning distribution rights, etc, but I think we can safely 
assume there was a covert agenda to the withdrawal.) 

Where did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald? 

In Michigan, with Dr. Earnshaw, in 1959. 

Care to elaborate? 

I don't remember the exact first meeting. Dr. Earnshaw was "Dr. E" of 
Conjurella, a CIA MK-ULTRA "trainer", as they were actually called. 

How did you find Oswald? 

Lee Oswald was a good, decent man who was extremely concerned about the 
welfare of the children, once he understood what was going on...he 
eventually attempted to make police reports on David Ferrie and Dr. 
Earnshaw, in Dallas. 

Could you describe briefly the kind of mind control procedure to which 
you were subjected, at least as you remember it? 

No. It could not be described briefly. Essentially, it involved not only 
hypnosis and drugs, but also amnesiacs and extreme psychological trauma. 


If this isn't too sensitive an area, how was such trauma brought about? 

Threats of violence against the victim, his family and his friends; 
physical abuse; and being placed in the presence of another victim being 
tortured or killed. All of these methods were effective in making the 
amnesiac take hold...under those condition the subject does not WANT to 
remember. 

Might this "program" be far more common that we realize? I'm thinking of 
the DayCare centre "scandals" of the '80s involving Michael Aquinas, and 
all those young children being subjected to "satanic" ritual, sexual 
abuse and and torture by supposedly respectable teachers (all in the 
employ of the US military) Do you think this might relate to the kind of 
"agenda" that you were sucked into? 

The methods may be similar, but I fail to see that they were identical. 
The MK-ULTRA trainers were, literally, all powerful over their victims. 
They did not fear apprehension, they did not fear the testimony of their 
victims. They could kill with impunity, induce amnesia instantly, and 
hustle critics into mental institutions at the stroke of a pen. The 
alleged abusers in the scandals you have noted did not possess that kind 
of authority, nor could they have successfully murdered a President. 

What in your opinion is the "necessity" for such traumatic process? A 
kind of softening up of the victim? 

No, it's to aid the amnesiac process, and to induce the state of altered 
reality necessary to trigger an MK-ULTRA automaton-killer. 

Could you say a little about this "alternate reality", how it's created 
and why it is so necessary? 

(I talk briefly about this "alternate reality" syndrome at "The Mystery 
of Initials") It's my contention that Manson, Hinckley and Chapman 
(amongst others) were all such "manchurian candidates" also, and that a 
major part of their "functioning" depended on the creation of a whole 
new "reality" in which their hidden personality (that of sleeper 
assassin) would operate (and in which their psychoses were perfectly 
sane). For Manson this "reality" revolved around the Beatles' White 
album, for Hinckley around the movie "Taxi Driver", for Chapman it was 
somehow all mixed up with Salinger's Catcher in the Rye. I don't mean to 
impose my own view on you here, but does any of this make sense to you, 
based on your own experiences? 

I think you are talking here about "alternate philosophy" rather than 
"alternate reality". When I woke up in the storage room, I was not aware 
of my surroundings. When I was draped over the rifle and lifted up, I 
was not aware that it was an actual weapon. After I had fired my first 
and only shot, collapsing to the floor, I got to my feet unaware that a 
murder had taken place, or that I had helped commit it. It was only a 
dream, which could alter from one moment to the next. 

You say, for example, you were "not aware it was an actual weapon". What 
did you think it was? 

I explained in CONJURELLA that I had been programmed to believe that I 
would be playing a sophisticated shooting gallery game. 

Do you have reason to believe your shot "connected", or was it just 
meant as "distracting fire"? 

It definitely connected. From my vantage point, it appeared I had shot 
the President in the chest. I may have gotten him in the throat. I 
definitely did not fire the head shot, and I definitely defied the order 
to shoot Governor Connally. 

Were you aware afterwards of being a WITNESS to the assassination? 

No. Even in the hallway afterwards, I had no memory of what I had seen 
or what I had done. I DID try to escape in the stairwell while exiting 
the building, however, so there must have been some subconscious 
knowledge. 

What did you do immediately following your act? 

Hurled myself to the floor and tried to push the rifle out the window. 
Unfortunately, it was BRACED to the window, and I was unsuccessful. 

Did you recognize Oswald when you saw him on the news? 

Yes and no. 

Care to name other well-known programmed shooters, or MC's? 

My cousin Linda fired from elsewhere in the Texas Book Depository 
building. 

Uh, what I meant was, ones that we the public have heard about, but 
might have assumed were "lone nuts" etc. 

Let me think about that one. 

I have read for example the Charles Whitman was an early "experiment" in 
this program. Sirhan Sirhan claimed to hear voices telling him to do it. 
Mark Chapman said he heard a voice in his head saying "Do it!" over and 
over again as he approached Lennon with his Catcher in the Rye in hand, 
ostensibly to ask for an autograph! Uh, I realize this isn't a question 
exactly, but I'm curious to hear any thoughts you have on this. Do you 
feel like what happend to you was exceptional, or just part of a much 
larger agenda? Don't all these "lone nuts" and trigger-happy psychos in 
school yards and MacDonald's restaurants make you wonder who's pulling 
the strings, and why? 

The school-yard child assassins are very suspicious, in the context of 
my knowledge of David Ferrie's child assassins. Charles Whitman may have 
been part of a much broader plot to destabilize Texas, to make them 
afraid, to show them that they aren't as tough as they think they are, 
at least, up against the CIA. Also, I believe that there were at least 
two, possibly three gunmen in the tower. I can't imagine how they 
removed the others, but my experience is that the CIA can do anything. 

Do you feel yourself to be still under the "influence" of this 
programming? 

Yes. 

In what ways are you influenced? Do you still find yourself doing things 
you have no personal reason or desire to do, for example? Do you hear 
voices, or receive images in your mind, have violent or other alien 
thoughts that seem not to be your own? 

No. But that is not to say that I have not been influenced permanently 
by the process to which I was subjected. 

Do you get memory lapses? 

Yes. Constantly. 

Have you taken precautions to ensure that you aren't being "activated" 
during these lapses? 

I doubt very much if I shoot many men these days; probably none at all 
in fact. But there are no such precautions as you describe. 

Besides having someone watch over you constantly, or tying yourself to a 
chair... 

Well, yes. Nixon taped virtually his every waking instant. One possible 
explanation of this is that he was aware of the process of MK-ULTRA 
induced altered consciousness and amnesia. By accounts given me, FBI 
Director J. Edgar Hoover had been experimented upon by his therapist 
also. If that account is true, and Nixon knew about it, that would 
explain Nixon's desire for a tape recorder constantly playing, even 
during conversations that might seriously compromise him. 

That's fascinating. It had never occurred to me, but it makes sense. So 
you believe these advanced mind control techniques aren't just used on 
school kids and convicts and other "innocent" victims, but on 
high-ranking officials also, all the way to the top in fact. Which begs, 
the question, WHO is pulling the strings, if even the president is a 
sort of marionette? Any suggestions? 

The President is only a very temporary leader, as is the CIA's appointed 
Director. There is a hierarchy within the CIA which feels that its role 
supercedes that of the Director, and the President. 

But isn't the "CIA" itself pretty small fry, compared to DOD, NSA, etc 
etc? Don't you think its been "skapegoated" and turned into a boogeyman, 
to divert attention from other agencies both larger and even more shady? 
Saying that "the CIA did it" has become as much a cliche as "the devil 
made me do it". Question is: WHO made the CIA do it?? This I presume is 
the "heirarchy" to which you refer, I would only question the use of the 
word "within", and suggest that the CIA is merely a part of this greater 
heircrachy that includes countless other agencies, or limbs, or heads of 
the one Hydra...? 

I'm not certain that an investigation of the Kennedy assassination 
should have, as its purpose, the unearthing of every conspiracy in the 
world or the overthrow of every world power. I feel it is the exact 
opposite. We know that at some point, it may be years, it may be decades 
or months or even hours away, but at some point, there will be a formal 
governmental investigation of the Kennedy assassination, based on 
CONJURELLA. When that happens, it is essential, from my standpoint, that 
the witnesses be required to testify on the Kennedy assassination AND 
NOTHING ELSE. This is hearsay, but I am told that top mobsters who 
volunteered to testify before the Garrison investigation were arrented 
en route for OTHER crimes. Regardless of their guilt, nothing was gained 
through this process; the truth of JFK...WHICH IS ALL WE ARE 
AFTER...remained hidden. I am not a theorist, an essayist, or a crusader 
against any injustice that this world conceals. I am a Kennedy witness. 
I WILL testify, but I will testify about the Kennedy assassination only. 
I am not concerned about the excesses of these other agencies, I am not 
concerned the excesses of freemasonry or the mob. I am not even 
concerned about the excesses of the CIA in toto. I am concerned only 
about the activities of the CIA's MK-ULTRA program, which tormented my 
family and myself, and forced me to kill the President. 

As usual my question has turned into a diatribe... Do you follow these 
trails yourself (to Bilderbergs or Trilaterals or Illuminati or whoever) 
or do you find it to be a glorified sort of wild goose chase? 

A decade ago, when I was engaged in my anti-smoking-in-comics publicity 
stunt, I wrote the Trilateral Commission for support. North American 
Director Charles Heck replied with a full-page detailed letter, and a 
copy of the Commission's magazine, TRIALOGUES. He could not have been 
more helpful. The purpose of the Trilateral Commission is to facilitate 
trade between Europe, the United States, and Japan. I support this 
purpose. In a sense, I suppose, I am a Tripartite Trilateralist, 
although that was the only contact I ever had from them. I can't imagine 
why they generate such paranoia among the extreme right, or why the 
Rockefellers, who have suffered so much at the hands of the CIA, should 
be scapegoated. Do you recall that Nelson Rockefellers wife developed 
breast cancer and had her breasts removed after the Rockefeller 
investigation of the CIA? 

No I never heard that That's pretty twisted - they went for his most 
vulnerable spot. Did that effectively end the investigations then? 

By my recollection, immediately after the Rockefeller investigation of 
the CIA, when Nelson was Ford's Vice President, both Mrs. Ford and Mrs. 
Rockefeller developed breast cancer and had their breasts removed. 

(respectful silence) 

Was there a specific "trigger" that you are aware of that "activated" 
you as a "sleeper-killer"? 

No. I only responded to the word "NOW!" when my finger contracted on the 
trigger. I was not aware, up to that point, that I was in the storage 
room for the purpose of shooting the President. 

How many shooters WERE there, in your opinion? 

I don't know. Let me think about that one also. There was Linda and I, 
David Ferrie, Linda's trainer, and, I think an adolescent boy with a 
rifle on the Grassy Knoll, who woke up and ran away after he took his 
shot. 

So, if I calculate rightly, you were 15 at the time! And how old was 
Linda? 

The same. 

Is she your twin? 

My cousin, briefly. My Uncle Johnny divorced and remarried frequently. 

Was Oswald one of the shooters, or was he just a patsy? 

He was not one of them. He was a hero, who gave his life to stop David 
Ferrie, and failed. 

That really flies in the face of orthodox "history"! First of all, 
Oswald wasn't "alone". Then, he was just a "patsy", and never fired at 
all. And now, he was a HERO who tried to stop the assassination?! It 
makes a sort of queasy sense, though, if this is true, that the powers 
that be would pick him for the fall-guy. What did you think of Stone's 
movie, "JFK"? 

I didn't watch it. 

Was that deliberate, I men, did you refuse to see it? 

Yes. 

Why was that? 

I may watch it someday. It just bothers me, not logically, but 
emotionally. 

Who fired the "head-shot"? 

I believe, David Ferrie. I was on the floor after the first shot, so 
it's only speculation. 

Are you familiar with Bill Cooper's "famous" copy of the Zapruder film 
that "shows" driver William Greer turning around and shooting Kennedy in 
the head? 

No. 

Any comments? 
(no comment) 
Uh, I don't want to be pushy, but I'm really curious to know what you 
think of this one. 
(no comment)
I guess I DO want to be pushy... do you want me to just leave this whole 
question out?
(no comment)
Do your find it too nutty to dignify an answer, or what?
(no comment)
shall we scrap this line of questioning once and for all? 
I won't know if it's pertinent unless I see the doctored film. 

You're assuming it's been doctored. Cooper claimed that the film we all 
know is the doctored one and he just points out that certain "shadows" 
or features on certain key frames have been scraped out: namely Greer's 
arm and gun etc. 

I saw nothing except my shot hitting the President. I dropped to the 
floor immediately after. I looked up to see David Ferrie had assumed 
command of the weapon and had resumed firing. After, in the hallway, I 
saw Linda being hustled past, looking just terrible. I was told later 
that she had fired also. Other than that, I had no direct knowledge of 
who the other gunman might be. Except one. But I'm not sure if I believe 
it. Remember that, prior to November 22, 1963, we all believed we were 
being trained for an invasion of Cuba. The CIA likes to think up ways to 
show you what a damned fool you are for trusting them, so what David 
Ferrie told us was this: Fidel Castro, far from being our enemy, had 
been one of the gunmen. Ferrie said that Castro had been in position, 
but had refused to shoot the President. He said that Castro had fired 
last, and had fired at Governor Connally and not the President, and that 
he had deliberately shot Connally to wound and not to kill. Ferrie said: 
"He'd better not expect any more support from us!" Jack Ruby, of course, 
had been a CIA gun-runner supplying CASTRO with CIA arms, and had also 
owned a nightclub in Havana AFTER the revolution. My Dad also believed 
that Castro had shaved his beard, and flown to Dallas to take part in 
the assassination, under CIA orders. Other than that, I don't know, and 
I'm not sure if I consider Ferrie's words credible. 

What I tangled web they weave! As to my own (not exclusively mine, I 
admit) theories of the "Masonic" undercurrents to the assassination, 
that it was less political, or even social, and more "magikal" an 
operation: a psychological COUP (of the American and even global public 
consciousness), rather than a merely political one? Care to comment? (I 
know you have more than a passing interest in the occult, so i wondered 
if we could sort of overlap the two fields, at this point?) 

My late mother's OTHER brother Charles, was a member of the Aladdin 
Temple Shrine on Stelzer Road in Columbus, Ohio. I would prefer not to 
implicate freemasonry in the assassination directly. 

Only INdirectly? Is this because you don't want to get into such 
potentially explosive terrain, considering the risks, or from a respect 
for freemasonry in general, or simpy a desire not to further "muddy" the 
waters? 

The Masons may have been involved, the mob may have been involved, any 
number of others may have been involved. But the real controlling force 
was the CIA. 

Do you think Kennedy himself "knew" about the assassination, or had 
intimations of what was to come? 

That's an awfully difficult question. 

Yeh, it is. But it also seems to be an important one, kind of the 
ultimate "conspiracy theory to end all conspiracy theories" (that JKF 
was IN on it too!!). I was thinking of how JFK was reputedly "obsessed" 
with his own assassination, how he loved "Macbeth" (it was the last play 
to be performed in the Whitehouse before his death), how his last 
unspoken speech was strangely prophetic ("We are the watchmen on the 
walls of world freedom" etc), and how he had certain thinly veiled 
aspirations (or delusions) towards a Christ-like status, ie, martyrdom 
(all speculation I admit)